Transcript from a broadcasted interview with director James Toback, about Robert and "Two Girls and A Guy" 05-06-1998

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GROSS: The character that Robert Downey plays is someone who hasn' t really made it as an actor. He's a struggling actor. But he's a born performer and although we don't see how well he performs on stage, and we don't know if he's a very good actor on stage or not, we see him performing compulsively at home -- performing in front of the mirror, performing on the telephone, performing in front of friends.

He doesn't quit.

And Downey is so much fun to watch in this role as this compulsive entertainer. What was well-suited about this part for Downey, do you think?

TOBACK: Well, I wrote it for Downey. I -- I took what was the essence of his nature, which is that of the charmer, the seducer, the entertainer, the verbally and physically facile enjoiner -- and then worked into that a consummate layer of deception, which is also central to Downey and creates some interesting drama.

And then in addition, felt from watching him after he'd been arrested and had gone into rehab a bit earlier, worked in this kind of dark and desperate side of his character, which I felt, having seen him on television after that arrest, he would be ready to reveal in a way that he hadn't before on screen.

GROSS: I think this role kind of captures the self-absorption of a lot of artists, which ends up being both their strength and their weakness. Their strength is because they have this -- this inner- talent to always draw on, but that self-absorption is their weakness, too, because if you're friends or lovers with someone like that, you know, after a while it's "but enough about you." You know, enough performing -- just relate to me as a person.

And I think that really comes across in this movie -- this, OK, you' re a really fun performer, but stop already. Is that something you intentionally wanted to write in? Is that something you've seen a lot in either Downey or other actors?

TOBACK: Absolutely. I think it is -- it is central to the nature of most performers that I've met, and certainly central to Downey' s being. Here and there, you'll meet an actor who is fairly free of that, but not often. And the need to please; the need to be watched; appreciated; the need to fascinate; the need to delight -- I think that is probably the deepest motivating force in most actors and in most entertainers.

And it certainly is in Downey. I think in his case, he almost doesn' t care whether the camera is running or not. He's running all the time.

GROSS: Give me a sense of what it was like to work on an improvised scene with Robert Downey.

TOBACK: Well, in Two Girls and a Guy, towards the end of the movie, there is a scene in which secrets of the two girls are revealed. And those secrets emerge only after a final assault on Downey and his duplicity. It was the only scene in the movie the writing of which I felt was unsatisfactory from the day we started shooting.

And on the day we were shooting it, having not made the necessary adjustments myself, I approached Downey and suggested that -- well, he actually said to me: "you know, this scene isn't nearly as good as the rest of the movie." And I said: "I know that." And I said: "why don't you write something yourself that you like." And he went off for about an hour and came back with what was a rather self-serving passage. Quite interesting and workable, but it was just kind of the beginning of the scene. And I said: "well, this is good, as a start. Let me show it to Heather and Natasha" -- Heather Graham and Natasha Wagner.

And I showed it to Heather, who turned purple as she was reading it and said: "I would never let him get away with this." And I said: "well, then don't." And she said: "what do you mean, don't?" I said: "don't -- don't let him get away with it. Say whatever you want.

Come back at him with whatever you want to come back at him." And she said: "really?" I said: "yeah." She said: "you mean anything?" "Yeah, anything." Because up until then, the improvisation in the movie had been kind of riffs on what was written, with certain parameters to be observed. And then I said to Natasha: "and you're gonna be there, and whatever you want to come in with, you come in with whatever." So by the time we started, we didn't rehearse it. We just sat down with three -- with a whole array of mirrors so it had a kind of very interesting fractured effect, splintered effect. And we got several different camera angles. And it actually was a fascinating scene to edit, because what I was left with, then, was 200 minutes of footage to cut into a 10-minute scene.

GROSS: I want to ask you about another scene. I want to ask you about the scene that we opened the interview with, where Robert Downey is on the phone with his agent. How much of that was written? How much of that was improvised? Did you have him, like, singing on the phone, as he put the agent on hold?

TOBACK: It was about half and half. The singing was his invention totally -- "call me daddy, call me daddy -- (Unintelligible) -- the pig that you are." That was Robert's invention -- and "for offering me this job, yeah, I'll take it" -- he has very, very good timing and good instincts about how to go off and how to come back.

I mean, I'd worked with him on The Pick-up Artist, as I said, 10 years ago. And there wasn't anything like that kind of confidence in his instincts then. And here, he just zoomed away every minute with what he instinctively felt was right, and pretty much knew exactly when to come back, as in that scene, where he kind of goes off and steps right back into the -- the line of the scene.

GROSS: Well, the premise of Two Girls and a Guy is that a man played by Robert Downey has told two women, played by Heather Graham and Natasha Wagner, that each of them is the only one he is capable of loving emotionally or physically. And of course, each of these two women think they are the only one, until they accidentally meet outside his loft.

I personally think you finally let him off the hook. I won't -- I won't give enough of the plot away to explain why I think -- you know, how I think you let him off the hook, but I do think you did that. So...

TOBACK: You mean, let him off the hook in the sense that I justify his behavior?

GROSS: Yeah. Mm-hmm. That you offer some kind of like emotional justification for his behavior.

TOBACK: I don't think so at all. I think that -- that it's very clear that the -- that if the movie is taking a position, it's taking the position that the women take. I mean, I think their attack on him is so ferocious and so clear and so justified, until of course the twist at the end, which doesn't in any way mean that he has been right. It's just that there are complications in them, too.

But I think he is shredded in this movie. And I think that, you know, to suggest that his movie justifies his behavior, when in fact it shows how it has devastated two people and been fundamentally dishonest. I mean, the fact that Downey happens to be very charming and engaging is -- was I think a necessary component in the casting.

If not, the audience would have wanted to stab the guy halfway through the movie.

But I think the virtue of the movie is precisely the opposite of that. I think it makes it very clear that this is a guy who is a liar and is a deceiver and is not emotionally ready to face up to the consequences of his actions; that all he does when he's called on something is tell another lie and spin-off into another deception.

And in no way anywhere is there an authorial point of view that says: this is a proper and acceptable way to behave.

GROSS: I want to ask you about what has been, for obvious reasons, the most controversial scene in your movie, which is a sexual encounter between the character played by Heather Graham and the character played by Robert Downey.

And this is a scene that the Motion Picture Association asked you to re-cut, or else they would have given you an NC-17, which would have seriously restricted your ability to advertise and to screen the movie.

Tell me what you wanted out of this scene?

TOBACK: Well, the scene is -- was designed for the psychological intentions of the characters. And you almost have to have seen the movie, but what Heather Graham does at that moment, which is a bit cruel towards the other character -- towards Natasha -- is to seduce Downey, to pull Downey into the bedroom with the intention of getting him off, and then of leaving.

The second moment -- the transition...

GROSS: So this would be a way of, like, asserting her power over him or...

TOBACK: That's right. And showing it to herself, to him, and to Natasha. And then leaving.

Then, as she's trying to leave, he stops her from leaving. And at that point, he's on the spot, because obviously, he's not going to get anywhere by simply showing that he's physically stronger than she is, so what he needs to do at that point is to get back to the point, which he certainly knows through a 10-month history with her, where he can excite her and get her off, which he then does.

Then, the coda is that she, in effect, recovers from having allowed that to happen, and still leaves. And in effect, says: "even though you got that -- that was a Pyrrhic victory, 'cause I'm gone." Then of course, she comes back, and the question -- and I think it's one of those mysteries which is not only true in life, it's true in the film -- you don't really know, and I don't really know -- if she had just gotten him off and left, would she, as a character, have gone back?

My suspicion is that she would not have.

GROSS: So when you realized that your choices were NC-17 or re- cut the movie, did -- was that a choice for you? Did you ever consider the NC-17?

TOBACK: Well, I didn't re-cut. I really just trimmed. I mean, I would have -- ultimately, if you get bald about it, I would have to do whatever I had to do to get an R. Fox Searchlight bought the movie and owned the movie, and was not going to release it as an NC-17. So, I had to get an R. And what I did was resubmit 14 times, each one with some shots a little shorter than they'd been before. I never actually took a shot out.

I mean, given that they were going to take the position they took, I thought: what difference does it make if someone is exposed to the terrifying sight of this sexual act occurring for seven seconds as opposed to four seconds?

GROSS: We talked about casting Robert Downey in the movie, and in fact writing the role for Robert Downey. I also wanted to ask you about casting Heather Graham. I think it's such an interesting contrast to her role in "Boogie Nights." In "Boogie Nights," she plays somebody who is in her own way really naive and not very smart, outside of maybe a little street smart. And in your movie, she's somebody who has a lot of -- you just imagine this character having a lot of depth; a lot of -- she seems very self- contained; very smart; very focused.

Tell me what you saw in her when you cast her. I think she's really a fine actress.

TOBACK: I think Heather's a great actress and I think she's a terrific personality and she's very appealing and interesting and mercurial. She has a kind of surface beautiness, with a quiet, subtle intelligence, and a kind of natural goofiness, which work very well in combination, because they're sort of -- it's a surprising mix.

I talked to her with Downey for about 15 minutes, and I think we both knew that she could do it. We didn't read her. It was just that she was impossible to shock or offend, and...

GROSS: Was that part of the audition? Trying to shock and offend her?

TOBACK: It was with her. I -- it wasn't with -- it wasn't actually with most. It wasn't so much trying to as -- given the nature of this material and given the fact that we were going to be shooting for 11 days, and that we were going to need actresses who could go wherever we -- wherever they wanted to go, wherever Downey wanted to go, wherever I wanted to go -- we needed free-wheeling people who were not easily upset or offended. It was just a practical decision.

On a normal movie with a normal shooting schedule, that's -- I don' t want to say irrelevant, but it's not a major consideration. In an 11-day shoot, where you have to make use of every minute, you can' t coddle people of delicate sensibility. And you're dealing with a movie that is dealing with kind of raw and dramatic personal and sexual issues and themes. It was essential to get people who could handle whatever came up.

So it wasn't that it was a conscious plan, but I think both Downey and I felt that, if we inhibited ourselves while talking to these people we were interviewing, it would not be doing them a service or us. And Heather, of all the people we talked to, responded as freely and openly and kind of one-upped us. So, it was very clear off that 15 minutes that she was ready to handle anything that came up.

GROSS: Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.

TOBACK: Thank you.

GROSS: James Toback wrote and directed the new film Two Girls and a Guy.